Trading without indicators

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  • #265985 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    Ever watched the film groundhog day?

    Heard the saying; got to see it to believe it?

    One of the persitant mistakes (if you want to call it that is; in the proccess we all use to analyse market behaviour no matter what method used we look for consistancy and that tends to be in what we see or hear about. we are trying to create a belief in ‘something’, ‘anything’ bassed on observations, backtests, forward tests ect. so we want to create a belief in something we trust and then we throw our money at it with conviction. how many times we need to hear or see it is diffrent for each person obviously but the main thing is that were doing our best to convince ourselves of something and creating that belief. don’t under estimate beliefs, they are the reason for wars! either that or greed but thats a diffrent topic.

    so we hear or see something x amount of times and say to ourselves thats amazing i have cracked the code of the market, now i can confidently go x amount on it because i have seen it with my own eyes. there in lyes the problem, we have convinced, we believe! we hit that buy or sell trade, we see profit then wham it starts going wrong, WTF comes to mind, it takes ‘time’ to proccess whats happening and that proccess runs a streem of thought, i could be still right, ill let it run, that belief you had is slowelly evaporating but its ingrained so its too hard to go against your own belief you took time to build so you let it run until finally you get margin called.


    its amazing how the thing we endovourd to create is the thing that got us margin called isnt it.

    Lesson, just because something happens x amount of times doesnt matter because there is still a chance it might not when you hit that buy or sell.


    been there got the t shirt and the slap on the back of the head off the misses

    GraHal thanked this post
    #265995 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    I asked the A.I; Give me a complete comprehencive list of problems/mistakes traders make when testing trading systems through ai and python.

    Traders face severe pitfalls when testing trading systems using AI and Python, often leading to “paper millions” that turn into real-world losses. While Python libraries make it easy to backtest strategies and AI models make it simple to find patterns, they also create a false sense of security by masking structural, mathematical, and computational errors.

    The complete, comprehensive list of these problems and mistakes is broken down into critical risk categories below.

    1. Data Poisoning & Data Integrity Errors

    The quality of your backtest is strictly capped by the quality of your data. AI models are highly sensitive to corrupted or unrealistic data inputs.

    • Look-Ahead Bias (Data Leakage): Introducing information from the future into the training or testing phase. This frequently happens in Python when calculating rolling metrics, shifting dataframes incorrectly (e.g., forgetting to use .shift(1) on technical indicators), or using global normalization parameters (min/max scaling) across the entire dataset instead of using a rolling window.
    • Survivorship Bias: Testing only on assets that exist today. If you backtest a trading system on current S&P 500 components over the last 10 years, you omit all the companies that went bankrupt or were delisted during that time, artificially inflating your AI’s win rate.
    • Ignoring Corporate Actions: Failing to use split-adjusted and dividend-adjusted price data. Python scripts pulling raw historical data will see a 2-for-1 stock split as a 50% overnight crash, triggering false sell signals or broken AI training loops.
    • Time-Zone and Timestamp Mismatch: Aligning features incorrectly due to international market hours or daylight savings adjustments. For example, mixing UTC execution timestamps with EST macroeconomic data releases causes the AI to accidentally “predict” the past.

    2. Algorithmic Overfitting & AI Vulnerabilities

    AI and machine learning algorithms excel at finding patterns—even patterns that do not actually exist.

    • Overfitting (Curve Fitting): Training an AI model with too many parameters or letting it train for too many epochs. The model memorizes the historical noise of the training data rather than learning the underlying market dynamics, leading to catastrophic failure out-of-sample.
    • Inappropriate Validation Splits: Using standard randomized cross-validation (like K-Fold) on time-series data. In finance, data is sequentially dependent. Randomized splits cause data leakage. Traders must use specialized validation techniques like Time Series Split or Purged/Embargoed Cross-Validation.
    • Regime Blindness: Training models across a long-term bull market and expecting them to perform in a high-volatility bear market. AI systems rarely extrapolate well to market regimes they have never seen before.
    • Feature Explosions (The Curse of Dimensionality): Feeding dozens of random technical indicators (RSI, MACD, Bollinger Bands, etc.) into an AI model simultaneously. Without proper feature selection or dimensionality reduction (like PCA), the model gets lost in collinear, noisy data.

    3. Frictional & Execution Blindness

    A backtest in a pure Python environment operates in an idealized friction-free world. Real markets do not.

    • Omiting Transaction Costs & Slippage: Assuming every trade executes perfectly at the exact historical close price. Failing to code realistic broker commissions, exchange fees, and market slippage into your Python backtest framework will make high-frequency or high-turnover AI systems look highly profitable when they are actually net-negative.
    • Order Book and Liquidity Illusions: Assuming large orders can be filled instantly at the last traded price. In low-liquidity assets (like small-cap stocks or altcoins), an AI’s large buy signal would move the market significantly, a factor raw Python arrays completely ignore unless complex market-impact models are coded.
    • Survivorship of Limit Orders: Assuming limit orders always execute as soon as the price touches the limit. In reality, you may be at the back of the queue, and the price might reverse without filling your order.

    4. Computational & Coding Vulnerabilities

    Python is a powerful tool, but mathematical and programmatic oversights within the code can invalidate weeks of testing.

    • Vectorized vs. Event-Driven Disconnect: Building backtests using fast vectorized pandas code (df[‘signal’] * df[‘returns’]) instead of a robust event-driven loop. Vectorized backtests are notoriously prone to look-ahead bias and cannot accurately model complex path-dependent rules, margin calls, or real-time risk management.
    • Floating-Point Precision Errors: Accumulating small compounding mathematical variances over thousands of simulated trades due to binary floating-point representation in Python, leading to miscalculated portfolio balances.
    • Silent NaN Handling: Allowing Python libraries to silently drop or forward-fill NaN values (missing data points) using methods like .fillna(method=’ffill’). If a stock halts trading, forward-filling its price creates an illusion of stability, which fools the AI system.

    5. Statistical & Psychological Pitfalls

    Traders often misuse statistical metrics to justify deploying a system that is statistically flawed.

    • Multiple Testing Deception (P-Hacking): Running 1,000 different iterations of an AI model with slight variations until one randomly yields an amazing Sharpe Ratio. This is statistical randomness, not alpha.
    • Over-reliance on a Single Metric: Judging a system solely on its Sharpe Ratio or total return. AI strategies can generate high Sharpe ratios while hiding dynamic tail risk, massive maximum drawdowns, or long periods of stagnation.
    • Underestimating Compounding Drawdowns: Forgetting to dynamically scale position sizes during drawdown periods in the code. A system that looks fine with static sizing might face a total margin liquidation when compounding losses occur in sequence.

    Comparative Summary of Testing Frameworks

    Testing Approach

    Primary AI/Python Mistake

    Real-World Consequence

    Vectorized (Pandas)

    Accidental look-ahead bias via incorrect shifts or data aggregation.

    Phenomenal backtest returns; immediate losses in production.

    Machine Learning (Scikit-Learn/PyTorch)

    Standard K-Fold cross-validation leaking future data into features.

    High training accuracy, zero predictability on live data.

    Deep Learning / LLMs

    Over-parameterization and training on un-adjusted historical noise.

    Model freezes or fails to adapt during sudden market regime shifts.

     

     So for anyone testing things this way the list might come in handy

    GraHal thanked this post
    #265998 quote
    GraHalGraHal
    Participant
    Legend

    The list helps to understand why it is difficult to produce coded profitable auto-strategies! 🙁

    Here’s a thought … out of the 75% (or is that 95%?) who fail at trading … what ‘% of the fails’ were trading using only / 100% (or > 80%) autotrading??

    Maybe AI can tell us? I will ask later and report back.

    #266004 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    I’d let you know but i have been timmed out on claud for 4 hours LOL


    1 thing comes to mind, careful what you ask for you might actually get it LOL


    I have an issue trying to get an automated system running on wall st at 14.25 and 14.29 then at 14’30 just at market open, i asked ig and they said (ATTACHED). I can maually trade it but i didn’t want to have to it coresponds with other things i’m doing at that time

    Screenshot-2026-09-24-160742.png Screenshot-2026-09-24-160742.png
    #266005 quote
    GraHalGraHal
    Participant
    Legend

    Source: Google AI Search:

    While institutional algorithmic trading dominates the market—accounting for 70% to 90% of total market volume and capturing the vast majority of professional profits—retail traders who rely completely on “plug-and-play” autotrading suffer from the exact same ~95% failure rate as manual traders. They simply automate their losses instead of clicking the button themselves.

    #266006 quote
    GraHalGraHal
    Participant
    Legend


    shug wrote: system running on wall st at 14.25 and 14.29 then at 14’30 just at market open

    I’ve got 2 or 3 that do exactly as above.

    What Instrument are you trying on? Mine are on DJI on spread betting and CFD.

    shug thanked this post
    #266007 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    mine is the same as yours

    #266008 quote
    GraHalGraHal
    Participant
    Legend

    Ha, attached are 2 that have been running since Aug 25.

    The 5 sec TF showing £2.6K profit is only 5 lines of code!! 😀

    #266009 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    For me my dog starts getting excited to go his walk and torments the life out me at 14;30, hes a bit confused now because the clocks changed and its getting darker sooner, i told him if i don’t make money at half 2 he losses his treats but it didnt work! who said dogs are intelligent, mine certainly isnt LOL

    #266011 quote
    GraHalGraHal
    Participant
    Legend

    Forgot the ss (attached now) … the 2 grandkids are here for tea, 3 of us all eating in a row on my desk!!

    2026-11-02_15-51-50.png 2026-11-02_15-51-50.png
    #266012 quote
    GraHalGraHal
    Participant
    Legend


    shug wrote: mine is the same as yours

    Is your code – Buy (or SellShort) at Market?

    If not ‘at market’ then maybe that is why your trades do not open?


    #266015 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    I’ll need to check, i deleted it today soon as i seen it didnt go on, i didnt write the code, A.I wrote it after me giving it the rules. Ill have a copy of it in prorealtime somewere though ill need to find it in with the other 97 systems LOL i set another in motion today on gold i’ll see how that 1 pans out exuse the pun!

    Screenshot-2026-11-02-181133.png Screenshot-2026-11-02-181133.png
    #266102 quote
    shugshug
    Participant
    Senior

    Hope no one got cought out the wrong side of those big moves! I’m seldome ‘suprised’ any more, been in the game a while but wall st suprised me last few days.

    Stop losses are an intresting topic, I started with very tight stops then went to bigger stops then went to no stops then went to trailing stops,then went to hedging then went to zone recovery been full circle with them. I’d like to hear about others experience with them.


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Trading without indicators


General Trading: Market Analysis & Manual Trading

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shug @shug Participant
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This topic contains 507 replies,
has 23 voices, and was last updated by shugshug
2 days, 4 hours ago.

Topic Details
Forum: General Trading: Market Analysis & Manual Trading
Language: English
Started: 07/30/2020
Status: Active
Attachments: 122 files
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