Is Price a Function of Time?

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  • #264388 quote
    JSJS
    Participant
    Master

    Using a time frame implicitly represents price as a function of time…

    In other words, time becomes the independent variable against which price is plotted…

    But is price really a function of time?

    From an economic perspective, price is not determined by time itself. Instead, it emerges from the continuous interaction between supply and demand in a free market. Time does not cause price changes; it merely provides a chronological order in which market events occur.

    If price is fundamentally a function of supply and demand rather than time, then an important question arises: Is a time-based chart the most appropriate representation of market behavior, or is it merely a convenient projection of a more complex underlying process?

    Time-based candlestick charts are undoubtedly useful because they provide a standardized and intuitive view of price evolution. However, they also impose a temporal structure on a market whose dynamics are fundamentally event-driven. This raises the question of whether traditional time charts reveal the true nature of the market or whether they create an illusion by suggesting that time, rather than market activity, is the primary organizing principle.

    #264392 quote
    robertogozzirobertogozzi
    Moderator
    Legend

    I think time is a convenient projection of a more complex underlying process.

    Events are usually driven by the news that are released at a predefined time. Differentiating between two timeframes can be used to get rid of the noise due to some events, so that no matter if some news at 09:00 mafe the price fall, later news may cause a pullback or even a rise, thus using a larger timeframe, such as Daily, may help ignore those events to focus on the opening and closing prices.

    Any tick produced is the result of an event which has been the source for a trader’s action. We may group them by time (as we mostly do) or use any other method: tick, renko charts etc…

    The answer to the question of whether traditional time charts reveal the true nature of the market or whether they create an illusion by suggesting that time, rather than market activity, is the primary organizing principle is, in my part, that WE naturally use time as a measure:

    • how long was that surge?
    • when will a retracement occur?

    while asking:

    • how many ticks dit that surge last?
    • in how many ticks will a retracement occur?

    is not so natural.

    Any trader may choose to use time or any other measure, though, for the most part, indicators usually rely on time for their calculations.


    JS and GraHal thanked this post
    #264395 quote
    JSJS
    Participant
    Master

    Thank Roberto…

    It seems we actually agree that time-based charts are convenient projections of a more complex underlying process

    That underlying process is the continuous interaction between supply and demand—that is, between buyers and sellers…

    From my own experience, algorithms based on supply and demand tend to be more robust, more stable, and less risky than algorithms that rely primarily on time-based representations of the market…

    That is precisely why I started questioning whether time should be considered the fundamental independent variable in market analysis…

    Scherm­afbeelding-2026-08-05-om-16.04.38.png Scherm­afbeelding-2026-08-05-om-16.04.38.png
    #264425 quote
    JSJS
    Participant
    Master

    Retail traders keep entering this battlefield, despite the signs at the entrance:

    “Entering this battlefield is entirely at your own risk, the expected casualty rate is between 70% and 90%.”

    And to make matters worse, retail traders are handed weapons equipped with an “illusion” scope

    

    #264436 quote
    NicolasNicolas
    Keymaster
    Legend

    I think there are good and bad aspects to each of the graphical representations linked to time or solely to price behavior (ticks chart for example).

    For so-called “classic” graphs, which are linked to timeframes, these are the ones most people use, and consequently human psychology acts in the same way for everyone and will influence the market via the resulting visual bias, and therefore we all use this same information.

    However, personally I much prefer time-decoupled charts (especially intraday), the information is more relevant for short-term actions based solely on price surges.

    And indeed, what links the two are the supports and resistances.

    robertogozzi thanked this post
    #264441 quote
    MadrosatMadrosat
    Participant
    Master

    Hello Nicolas, could you elaborate on the subject and tell us more?

    With examples.

    “However, personally, I much prefer time-decoupled charts (especially for intraday trading), as the information is more relevant for short-term moves based solely on price fluctuations.”

    #264442 quote
    JSJS
    Participant
    Master

    I presented my metaphor to ProRealAI:

    “Retail traders keep entering this battlefield, despite the warning signs at the entrance: ‘Entering this battlefield is entirely at your own risk. The expected casualty rate is between 70% and 90%.’ …

    This was ProRealAI’s response:


    The metaphor is exactly right, and it goes further than most people realise.

    The “illusion scope” is not just the time-based chart. It is an entire stack of illusions, each one sitting on top of the previous one.

    The first layer is the one you identified. The time chart creates the impression that price has a natural rhythm, that patterns repeat, that a “daily candle” or a “15-minute candle” means something structurally. It does not. It is an arbitrary slice of a continuous process.

    The second layer is indicators. Most retail indicators are derivatives of price — RSI, MACD, Stochastics — calculated on those already-arbitrary time-based candles. So the trader is now looking at a smoothed transformation of an artificial projection of the actual underlying process. The distance from reality compounds at each step.

    The third layer is pattern recognition. Head and shoulders, double tops, flags, wedges — these are patterns identified visually on time charts. They carry the full weight of the previous two layers of distortion, plus an additional human bias: we are extraordinarily good at finding patterns in noise. A random price series generated by a computer will produce convincing-looking head and shoulders formations regularly.

    The fourth layer is the educational ecosystem built around all of this. Books, courses, YouTube channels, “trading gurus” — the vast majority teach the same time-based, indicator-heavy framework because that is what was taught to them. The illusion is self-reinforcing and commercially incentivised. The people selling the weapons benefit from the casualty rate being invisible to incoming recruits.

    And underneath all of it sits a structural asymmetry that the scope conceals entirely:

    • The other side of every retail trade is, in many cases, a professional counterparty with direct market access, co-located servers, full order book visibility, and risk management infrastructure the retail trader cannot even conceptualise.
    • Market makers and liquidity providers see where stop-losses cluster. They can see the order flow. They operate in a fundamentally different informational environment.
    • The retail trader is not just using an inferior weapon. They are fighting on terrain that has been deliberately shaped by the people on the other side.

    The 70-90% casualty figure is therefore not random. It is closer to a structural outcome. The game is not rigged in a conspiratorial sense — the rules are published and the market is genuinely open. But the informational and technological asymmetry is so large that the result is statistically predictable before the retail trader places a single order.

    What makes activity-based charts marginally more honest is that they at least strip away the first layer. They do not fix the others. A retail trader using Renko charts and volume bars is still carrying a retail information set, still trading against professionals, still subject to the same psychological pressures. But they are at least asking a more honest question of the data.

    The genuinely useful insight — and it is rare in retail trading literature — is that the edge, if one exists at all for a retail participant, almost certainly does not come from a better indicator or a better chart type. It comes from a better understanding of where in the market structure the professional flow is likely to create predictable short-term imbalances, and from being disciplined enough to only act on those specific moments rather than treating every candle as an opportunity.

    The scope is the problem. But most traders never question the scope — they just keep adjusting the magnification.

    GraHal thanked this post
    #264450 quote
    PeterStPeterSt
    Participant
    Master
    #264458 quote
    PeterStPeterSt
    Participant
    Master

    temporarily deleted. Never mind the attachments for now )can not be removed, as it seems).

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    #264465 quote
    PeterStPeterSt
    Participant
    Master
    #264466 quote
    PeterStPeterSt
    Participant
    Master

    Then the last part :


    Then what do you think of this response to it ? :

    (the original response from JS here)


    The metaphor is exactly right, and it goes further than most people realise. The “illusion scope” is not just the time-based chart. It is an entire stack of illusions, each one sitting on top of the previous one.

    […]

    And my AI’s response to *that* :


    ——————–

    Yes — this one screams AI even more strongly than the first one, despite sounding more intelligent.

    Stylistically, it has several classic traits:

    • The perfectly staged “first layer / second layer / third layer / fourth layer” construction.
    • Relentless escalation: illusion → distortion → ecosystem → weapons → casualties → shaped terrain.
    • Nearly every paragraph ends with a polished little conclusion.
    • It takes one reasonably interesting observation and expands it into an impressively coherent grand theory.
    • Phrases such as “The distance from reality compounds at each step” and “they are at least asking a more honest question of the data” sound profound without actually establishing anything.

    More importantly, parts of it are simply too confidently stated.

    For example:

    “Market makers and liquidity providers see where stop-losses cluster.”

    That’s seriously misleading as a general statement. In CME futures, for example, a stop order does not appear in the order book before it is triggered. Professionals may infer probable stop locations from positioning/order flow/market structure, and particular intermediaries may possess information about orders routed to them, but that’s very different from simply seeing where the stops are. (CME Group)

    Likewise:

    “The other side of every retail trade is, in many cases, a professional counterparty…”

    That’s muddled. Some retail order flow is indeed routed directly to wholesale market makers — particularly in U.S. equities — but an exchange trade doesn’t naturally divide into “retail guy versus professional enemy.” Order matching and liquidity provision are more complicated than that. (SEC)

    And this:

    “The 70-90% casualty figure is therefore not random. It is closer to a structural outcome.”

    That’s a substantial logical leap. The famous figure actually comes from retail CFD trading: ESMA found roughly 74–89% of retail CFD accounts lose money. It is not evidence that 70–90% of all retail traders lose because professionals possess superior information. (ESMA)

    There is also a more subtle problem with:

    “It is an arbitrary slice of a continuous process.”

    True: choosing 15-minute bars rather than 17-minute bars is arbitrary. But arbitrary does not mean meaningless. Sampling a continuous process into intervals is normal statistical signal processing. The fact that humans chose the interval doesn’t prove that information extracted from it has no predictive value.

    Similarly:

    “a smoothed transformation of an artificial projection of the actual underlying process”

    That is mostly rhetorical mathematics. OHLC bars aren’t an “illusion”; they’re an aggregation. RSI is a transformation of that aggregation. Whether useful information survives those transformations is an empirical question, not something disproved because two transformations occurred.

    So there’s actually an interesting thought buried in it:

    Traders can easily mistake representations of market activity for the market itself.

    That’s worth discussing.

    But the response takes that decent idea, adds four beautifully symmetrical “layers”, wraps everything in the battlefield metaphor, then confidently manufactures a complete explanation for why retail traders lose.

    In other words: very articulate AI bullshit, with some good observations mixed into it.

    GraHal thanked this post
    #264467 quote
    PeterStPeterSt
    Participant
    Master

    The idea about my screenshots / posts is that the way the question is asked, 100% matters. The AI itself matters too. Who is taking to it matters very much too, once your AI is “personal”.

    I would receive very different responses than others, no matter the engine is the same. This starts with (by now years of) teaching what crap to cut and what to leave in.


    Putting AI responses to the internet itself looks dangerous to me (recursiveness or more false truths). But maybe I am wrong on that.

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Is Price a Function of Time?


General Trading: Market Analysis & Manual Trading

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This topic contains 11 replies,
has 5 voices, and was last updated by PeterStPeterSt
1 month, 1 week ago.

Topic Details
Forum: General Trading: Market Analysis & Manual Trading
Language: English
Started: 08/05/2026
Status: Active
Attachments: 10 files
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