Im starting to give up hope for my strategies that usually holds over days.. the costs are killing me.
Looking at my results for 2024:
PRT telling me results was +21.660 $
IG is telling me results was +9.217 $
IG Total cost for 2024: -11.559 $
21660 – 11559 = 10.101 $ should be result, but i ended on 9217 $, and im guessing the difference of -900$ are from actual trade results vs PRT results.. thats livable, but the overnight cost is insane.. Problem is that majority of my algos like to hold for a few days.. ugh
The PRT graph is so nice but just not even CLOSE to actual results because of cost.. Sad..
i guess this is just venting
Btw anyone here trade with real futures contracts and not CFD? I would pay comission but im guessing that would be alot less than the overnight holding cost?
Indeed, you’ll get better performance with Futures contracts through PRT+IB, no overnight holding cost:
https://www.prorealtime.com/en/interactive-brokers/fees/futures
Also, any order will give you a “PRT Credit”: For each executed order or contract through the ProRealTime platforms on the following instruments, you get a PRT credit.
With PRT Credits, you can pay your platform fees AND the cost of the data subscription: 1 PRT credit = €1 rebate
I plan to offer more for our active members of the community (it is in the pipe 😉 )
Thanks Nicolas, i will check out later tonight!
I would neeed to check if my strategies would work with IB, but if they are, and i got enough capital to trade with futures and ditch the CFD, or at least trade the ones holding overnight, i will definitly switch.. I think on average i do 4 trades per day so the credits would pay for my fees im guessing
Yes, there is a great chance that your PRT Credits net off the fees.
The IB trading offer through PRT is definitively better than with CFD, IMO.
I agree Jebus. This year I added time exits to all my strategies in ordet to keep over night fees to a minimum. In some cases, the net profit gets lower in backtest, however it gets higher when you take into account overnight fees. I usually add something like if the trade have been open for x amount of bars and time => 224500 then sell/exitshort at market. And also try to avoid keep positions open over weekend (again, only if it shows it gives me more net profit taking into the overnight fees). Hopefully this helps!
Dear people,
The credits over at the IB side won’t help you a dime for the Commission to pay; they only will help the subscription fees for platform and data.
- If you trade enough all subscriptions will be for free. Read : all will be for free.
- Commission remains to be payed but is ~ half of what IG charges for spread. Nothing for free here.
- The credits Nicolas mentions are 1 euro for a trade on Minis and 0,50 euro for Micros.
- Minis cost 2,25 per side and the smallest contract is 517.000 at this time for Nasdaq (at a current price of 25.900). In+Out = 4,50.
- Micros cost 0,62 per side and the smallest contract is 51.700 at this time for Nasdaq (at a current price of 25.900). In+Out = 1,24.
- The being a Pro at IG hence get infinite Margin, brings nothing to IB.
- When you manage to be a Pro according CME rules (like working at a bank and the like) then data costs ~ 10 fold and getting the subscriptions for free net (including the credits) is a tad harder.
- With IG you don’t pay directly for the data, while with IB you easily may need 10+ data subscriptions (and dozens exist). Say that on average each cost 5 to 15 euros per month (non-Pro). It is good to estimate this on 250 per month. But not to forget : the credits may make this for free (as in 125 full trades (In+Out) bring 250 for Minis, or else 250 full trade for Micros bring the same.
- You’d need to start all over with any of your strategies because all is too different. Clearest example : stupid averages already don’t work out the same. Note : this is because IG’s internal hedging system let vary the price in an unnatural way – this also means that IG Futures already also require new strategies because they *do* behave in a natural (genuine) way.
My personal take : in general (!) a die hard IG user will have to take a deep breath because of the contract sizes. Margin can vary say between 5% and 10%. Meaning : Buy one Micro contract Nasdaq requires 10% of 51.700 in the portfolio. Thus ~ 5.000. However, this can’t be because you can’t work with 5,000 and lose 1% of 51.700 = ~500 because readily your position will be kicked out. And then you bought the smallest contract possible … (OK, Nasdaq bears a high price – e.g. S&P500 is cheaper at currently 348.000 for the Mini and 34.800 for the Micro.
I need to add : IB requires a 10% buffer, so that my mentioned 5.000 requirement becomes 5.500 in the first place. Lose 100 on that and the position is kicked out.
- For all this, scaling might become virtually impossible.
Lastly, Futures on IG will indeed bear no overnight interest. But the spread is more than twice of the CFD. This is too much to make any real profit at higher frequency trading (like a few trades per day is that already). This math is up to you of course, but what you pay for the spread is more expensive than what you pay for the overnight costs.
All ‘n all, IB is indeed way cheaper (about twice compared to IG CFDs on the spread/commission alone) but for most of us not within reach because of the portfolio requirements. “Most of us” of course does not mean you.
Hope this helps !
Peter
Peter, im having trouble following your post here. Let me try to summarize and you point out if i misunderstood:
- IB is cheaper to trade with overall because of no overnight cost, however spread is bigger and you pay comission on each trade
- You need to buy data, for example i would need to pay money to get data for sp500, dow jones and nasdaq if thats what i want to trade?
- My trading strats i would like to transfer are on daily chart for sp500, holding for 1-3 weeks usually. and some 1h that might hold 1-3 days tops (i think average is probably 20 hours). So its not strictly 4-5 trades per day on 15 min chart or anything like that.
- When it comes to margin etc that might be a problem, i would need to do some math on how much i need on my account to trade say 10-15 contracts (micro i think) at once..
Not sure what you ment about: (OK, Nasdaq bears a high price – e.g. S&P500 is cheaper at currently 348.000 for the Mini and 34.800 for the Micro.
348.000 dollars?
In regards to “will my systems work in IB” is a question i hope to get answered the following week. I have signed up for IB and PRT today, as soon as i get access im going to try to just copy paste my strategies into IB and if the results are bad and i cant easily tweak it, its definitly a no go.. but then i need to figure out what im going to do, because making 22K on PRT, but left with 10K in IG and then i pay 38% taxes (norway) on top of that, im left with VERY LITTLE for all my work… My hopes and dreams would be to reduce my cost by 80% ish through IB, but lets see if thats even possible…
jebus89 wrote: however spread is bigger
Jebus, as far as I can see that is the only thing you interpreted differently from what I wanted to bring across;
You pay no spread on IB (or neglectable) – only Commission.
Otheriwse about the 348.000 dollars … Yes that is one Mini Contact for S&P 500. But /10 for a Micro. It is a different world.
making 22K on PRT, but left with 10K in IG and then i pay 38% taxes (norway) on top of that, im left with VERY LITTLE for all my work…
Your work just needs to be a little more. It takes many years to get somewhere (for me at least).
I am not saying your work has been less than mine. I only try to bring across that it is very very difficult and also : on IB it is much easier. But be careful that it is within reach; that was my message.
But side note – and in the very same realm : If your work has been sufficient and it works out, all what’s needed is throwing more money at it. Understand ? that’s why “the same realm”; IG seems like a playground with nice very small contracts (like 0.5 or 0.2 or 0.1 times a normal Micro) but the costs are unbearable. Well, you experienced that. And worse : would you be able to make some money then you are thrown out in advance because of distance too close and such.
No free lunch anywhere. Just more hard work. And you should be glad you can do that work. By far most won’t – they think that it is as easy as answering a few questions from a wizard …
Right ?
But it will make you tougher – that is good.
jebus89 wrote: When it comes to margin etc that might be a problem, i would need to do some math on how much i need on my account to trade say 10-15 contracts (micro i think) at once..
On this one, just for clarification – for S&P500 :
One Micro is ~35.000. So ten of those is 350.000. 15 is obviously 525.000.
Margin requirement varies between 5 and 10%, so we need to assume 10% (IB will make it that when they deem it necessary – higher risks – voting for Trump-3 and such). So for the 10 contracts : 35.000 + 10% = 38.500.
Now IB likes to add 10% of buffer. That makes it 42.350.
Trade with that Portfolio amount of 42.350 would work … this morning. But throughout the day 0.45% was lost on the S&P500 (1.39% on Nasdaq !!). Thus on the investment of ten (10) that is 350.000 – 0.45% = 348.425. That is a loss of 1.575.
1 Micro costs 3.500. So the 1.575 will take out 1 micro contract. Thus when you had 10 of them invested, IB will make 9 of that when overnight starts (between 22:00 and 23:00 AMST that happens).
To keep in mind : this works (out) when you can invest 10 contracts. But if you can invest 1 contract only, you’re out. You didn’t lose all your money but you just lost pay ground.
This is nothing new of course, but IG is more tolerant on this. They tell you to add some portfolio or when Pro they tell you nothing (until you lost all your money). IB is much more protective and that is good. But it also means less play ground.
Lastly, something else to keep in mind :
If you have say 5 systems running on IG and maybe one tends to take position on some Limit Entry order, then your chances are that this one system indeed takes position. Now, on IB it does not work like that at all; there it is assumed that each of the 5 systems takes position and you’re rejected in advance (as if 5 times the margin is required which indeed could happen). So you won’t even be able to get in the Limit Order(s).
Thus think about it … this is all more real and it is for your own protection …
you should not trade cfds if you can afford trading futures for the same instrument, fullstop. it is not only and not mainly because of overnight financing costs. there are more, much more serious reasons.
JSParticipant
Senior
Hi @jebus89
Here are the current prices for IB:
- Premium software license
- Fees per order
- PRT credits
- Margin requirements
If you want to run multiple systems on the same market, you have the option to have sub-accounts created by PRT. You can decide how the PRT credits are distributed across the different accounts. For example, I had my sub-account integrated into my main account and allocated the PRT credits between the accounts.
Example: Currently 1 Micro E-mini Nasdaq-100 Full0326 “short” position on the Nasdaq:
Exposure: Close × PointSize × PointValue = 25,638 × 1 × 2 = $51,276 (€43,455)
Margin: Initial $3,253 / Maintenance $2,957
JS wrote: Hi @jebus89 Here are the current prices for IB: Premium software license Fees per order PRT credits Margin requirements If you want to run multiple systems on the same market, you have the option to have sub-accounts created by PRT. You can decide how the PRT credits are distributed across the different accounts. For example, I had my sub-account integrated into my main account and allocated the PRT credits between the accounts. Example: Currently 1 Micro E-mini Nasdaq-100 Full0326 “short” position on the Nasdaq: Exposure: Close × PointSize × PointValue = 25,638 × 1 × 2 = $51,276 (€43,455) Margin: Initial $3,253 / Maintenance $2,957
thanks for the explanation and screenshots!
On a rough average what does it cost (fees) to trade via IB for you? And how many trades on average per day or week or year do you do?
